Remember the Taylor Swift concert? Remember Boaty McBoatface? How about the bridge named ‘Chuck Norris’?
If there’s one thing we’ve learned about voting on the internet it’s this; Don’t let the internet vote.
Can I ? yes, everyone can. Do I want to? I’m not sure…
I mean all icons in all workbenchs 
, right know, we try to follow tango theme. https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?t=19320
Ok, you won guys. Goodnight, see ya at next logo proposal topic.
Maybe we should start with a vote/discussion about what are the definition/criteria of a very objective way of voting/discussing…
Stack overflow… Infinite loop detected
There’s some truth to this…
I’m not sure it really universally applies but then again look at the dumpster fire that is reddit.
I am not familiar with Path WB. Can you start a thread about what need to be improve and where in this workbench? This way, I will see if I can help (right now I am doing some standardization tasks with icons).
I think that everyone has started opensource contributions with something that is “obvious” or simple, as one of the first barriers is knowing the contribution process so, in a sense, this kind of submissions are expected. Hasn’t everybody started contributing by submitting doc patches, fixing trivial typos or small bugs? Isn’t this about scratching an itch?
Also, as a software that is used by some design oriented people it’s also natural that they try to contribute to those aspects that they know better and have more skills. In that sense, designing a logo and creating icons or improving the UX of a dialog are very different kind of tasks.
Furthermore, I would find concerning for the future of the FreeCAD project that contributions to docs, community building or artwork were considered second class, and dismissed because they are just not code.
Improving the user experience and design of a panel, without further direction, needs someone that is familiar with the tool and can tell with precision what every button / area does. In some projects (Rust, Gnome…) there are some “easy” bugs in the bug tracker that have more exhaustive steps and instructions to get them fixed. They are mostly prepared as a way to start contributing and get people engaged in the areas that need more contributors. Are there design issues in the bug tracker? Does anyone who can craft icons but don’t know the Path WB have an overview of what doesn’t work in that dialog, what is missing? Is there a public request for help in that area?
Hope this helps.
And, by the way, I find the proposed logo very good and I would only be concerned if the font is not free.
The point are the “further directions”. Agryson, who created lots of icons, wasn’t familiar with all of the functions he created icons for. He was a designer, asked for peoples ideas, made a proposals, got comments, made a final version. The results were/are impressive.
A vote needs to happen, one way or another, otherwise, nothing is going to change, ever.
Fine. We can go from direct democracy to meritocracy: not everyone should be allowed to vote (especially not people who are impartial about software looking one way or another, or “don’t care” about aesthetics).
We could build a committee of ~20 people with proof that they have a background in some area of design? Let them vote on all submissions, then narrow it down to 5, then to 2, and then pick one?
Well, yes, but maybe he wouldn’t have done anything like that if the first reaction were “Why keep people reworking icons when we already have many and there are parts of the app that don’t have them?”. Agryson was, for sure, right in their strategy to reach consensus, get feedback, etc, but maybe that’s because they were already more experienced in this community, or had more time, wanted a far reaching contribution or whatever reasons. IMHO, it’s only that it would be a pity if everyone that could make a difference for FreeCAD can’t because they lack those abilities (or hasn’t learnt them).
As a positive note, I find @bitacovir’s request for more information on the design needs a great idea. Do we have a clear idea of UI elements that are clearly missing a design review?
Also, having issues tagged with a “design” or “needs_design” labels, as well as mentored issues in that area could be something to explore. Sorry if this already exists but, in my case, I find the mantis issue tracker particularly difficult to use.
Thanks for a very good reply. There’s a tendency to believe the best about people and their contributions and I think that’s good. What you’re saying echos what I believed about this phenomenon in the past. But I’m starting to think there’s something else going on.
Let’s take OP on this thread as a convenient example. This user has posted to the forum exactly one time - to submit a logo. Despite FreeCAD’s notorious learning curve, they’ve never asked or answered a question. They’ve never shown something designed in FreeCAD. Just a logo suggestion.
If someone walked up to you on the street and offered suggestions on how you could dress better, you might be polite but you’d probably be a little offended, and rightly so. A suggestion like that from a friend matters because a friend has your best interests in mind. A random stranger, maybe not.
Maybe OP is a lurking long-time user who loves FreeCAD and is moved to make it better. Or maybe OP is a design student trying to pad out a portfolio and score bragging points. I have no way of knowing.
I want to believe the best about people and the contributions they offer but I’m coming to believe that many of these drive-by offerings are not from FreeCAD users at all. They’re from designers seeking an easy win for their own portfolio.
If that is true (and I have no evidence that it is) then choosing a logo from a drive-by contributor is the worst thing we could do. Far from settling this issue, it will just invite more. If someone wants to work on the marquee then they should already have a thorough understanding of the community and the software. They should have trust and reputation built on hard work over time.
Are there design issues in the bug tracker? Does anyone who can craft icons but don’t know the Path WB have an overview of what doesn’t work in that dialog, what is missing? Is there a public request for help in that area?
I’ll try to start a topic about Path UI improvement but my comments here were about the phenomenon of unsolicited logo suggestions. Like I said above, there are many many places in FreeCAD where good design skills are welcome.
We make progress every day on this software without taking a vote. Quality work generally stands on its own. But if you want to make big changes in the code or profound changes to our image you better have a long history of demonstrated commitment.
I’ve seen the work you’ve been doing on the UI in your other thread so I know you understand how good design takes hard work. Do you really want to trust something as important as our logo to a vote? Do you want to give that kind of honor to someone who may never contribute again?
I don’t know anyone among the long-time contributors who doesn’t care deeply about design. I understand how hard good design is and how important it is. That’s why I want to see contributors roll up their sleeves and do something else before they presume to redefine our image.
There’s no reason to vote on objective things. Most of the development is.
A logo is subjective.
The quality of design work is not related to history of commitment. It’s either good design work, or it isn’t.
Regarding honour - I could not care less about that. I want a logo that isn’t riddled with rudimentary design errors and mistakes. I would even be down to crowdsourcing a reputable graphics designer to do it.
The logo design thread has been open for what, 3 years now? Logos are updated regularly. Even the biggest, oldest companies update their logos often, to keep up with the times.
FreeCAD is software, there’s no legacy, there’s no ‘worthiness’, quality of input isn’t related to how old your profile on the forum is. We can either do something to improve its image, or we can keep the amateur hour ticking, saying that we haven’t found a worthy alternative yet (of which there are plenty)
Hey! That’s the kind of problems that in some way every project woul like to have! Designers wanting to improve their portfolio sending professional artwork, programmers sending patches because they want to learn new languages and programming tools and also becase that improves their portfolio (contributions to OS projects are something you can show now as a plus in your CV), UX engineers coming to improve their skills and also gain visibility, etc. Many will just find rewarding being able to contribute what they know or some of their time.
That doesn’t mean that managing this flow of contributions is easy and I kind of feel why you are worried. But this will probably worsen as FreeCAD is getting so nice that many professional users can start considering it a viable option for them and the project is more popular.
Anyway, thanks to all contributors that spend their time on improving FreeCAD!
On the user-facing parts of the software, it is not very objective. UI/UX is enormously complicated and often extremely subjective.
That’s why I have such a high value for good design.
The quality of design work is not related to history of commitment. It’s either good design work, or it isn’t.
I agree. And judging good design work is also challenging. That’s why I don’t like leaving it to a vote. A history of commitment/contribution doesn’t imply or guarantee good design but it implies that the designer has taken the time to thoroughly understand the context that they’re designing for.
Regarding honour - I could not care less about that. I want a logo that isn’t riddled with rudimentary design errors and mistakes. I would even be down to crowdsourcing a reputable graphics designer to do it.
I’m not opposed to paying for a professional logo. It means we somehow have to choose a professional firm which is just a recursive example of the same problem.
The logo design thread has been open for what, 3 years now? Logos are updated regularly. Even the biggest, oldest companies update their logos often, to keep up with the times.
So what? Nobody ever said FOSS software was fast. Who cares if it takes three years or five? It’s done when it’s done. We’re not a company. We have no quarterly deadlines. We don’t answer to customer.
FreeCAD is software, there’s no legacy, there’s no ‘worthiness’, quality of input isn’t related to how old your profile on the forum is. We can either do something to improve its image, or we can keep the amateur hour ticking, saying that we haven’t found a worthy alternative yet (of which there are plenty)
FreeCAD is more than the software. There’s a community around that software. There are individuals who are building their careers on top of it. You’re right that contributions to the source code are not based on ‘worthiness’ but contributions to the community are absolutely based on history, merit, and commitment. We don’t invite first-time posters to be moderators on the forum. We don’t give merge authority to first time code contributors.
Our views do not align at all. And I’m not going to respond to “so what?” questions and I’m not going to defend people who share their work just so they can be called egoistic and ‘potentially’ with a hidden agenda to somehow become rich and famous by suggesting an Icon. It’s all utter nonsense.
It’s an icon / logo we’re talking about, not a complete overhaul of FreeCAD from the ground up. It doesn’t need time, and the designer does not need to connect with the “inner chakras of FreeCAD” to design a good logo.
I can see that you’re one of the core developers, and it really frightens me that this is the path FreeCAD is going to continue on going.
I think I will not be able to contribute any further to this cause, not when the general consensus is “we’re fine as we are, leave us alone”. I just don’t waste my time (typing and posting) and others’ time (reading and responding to my blabbering).
I think I cannot help when help is this aggressively rejected or dismissed.
I’ll show myself out.
I see that this discussion became indeed more and more agressive, but I don’t see that sliptonic started this. It seems rather to me that you felt offended (where I couldn’t see the reason) and reacted then yourself more and more agressive.
Locking this topic for a bit so we can regroup and focus up.
Isn’t that a bit premature?